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Post by Greenie on Nov 27, 2006 10:23:54 GMT -8
• Harold Baines • Albert Belle • Dante Bichette • Bert Blyleven • Bobby Bonilla • Scott Brosius • Jay Buhner • Ken Caminiti • Jose Canseco • Dave Concepcion • Eric Davis • Andre Dawson • Tony Fernandez • Steve Garvey • Rich Gossage • Orel Hershiser • Tommy John • Wally Joyner • Don Mattingly • Mark McGwire • Jack Morris • Dale Murphy • Paul O'Neill • Dave Parker • Jim Rice • Cal Ripkin Jr. • Bret Saberhagen • Lee Smith • Alan Trammell • Devon White • Bobby Witt Here are my picks to get in. Tony Gwynn Cal Ripkin Jr. Orel Hershiser Bret Saberhagen Jack Morris
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Post by crash23 on Nov 27, 2006 10:59:16 GMT -8
Saberhagen? ?? 167 - 117 career record. If he's the barometer for pitchers then about 1,000 other pitchers deserve to be in. Tommy John and a whole bunch of other deserve it before Saberhagen. Morris I might give ya b/c aside from his record he was dominant for several years and won the big games. Hershiser was very good for several years, class act and won some big games. The record of scoreless innings will be tough to beat but that's kind of like Maris' 61 homers. An awesome acievement but not enough for a ticket to the hall. I think Blyleven is more deserving. He did it as good for longer. But if he goes then you almost have to argue that Kaat should go. Both were journeyman pitcher who racked up numbers. Though I think Blyleven was better and more consistent - had one of the best curves in histroy. It will be interesting to see what kind of support McGwire gets. I vote no. What he did, and all the juicers for that matter, was worse than Rose. Rose's actions did not alter the game. The juicers altered the game, the history books and stole Maris' legacy. Gwynn and Ripken are no doubters. I think Gossage belongs. I like Garvey but I think his numbers are a bit short of the mark. But how many first basemen were better in the 70s? I think you have to judge players against those of their era. The top one or two at every position should be in. If that's the case Garvey belongs. It's not all about numbers. He was clutch all season long and in the post-season. Mattingly is in the same purgatory Garvey is in. Dawson was one of the most feared players for over a decade. He was a five tool player. If you think about it how many better all around players have there been? Not many. He was a leader too. He earned it.
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Post by scrapper on Nov 27, 2006 11:54:23 GMT -8
This should be real interesting. The first of the known Juicers are up in Caminiti and Canseco, McGwire. Both Canseco and Caminiti are out and McGwire will be a second ballot maybe third. which if McGwire gets in. Rose should get in and Joe Jackson.
Blyleven? Did even have 300 wins. I think he was short 274.
I love the Dodgers but Hershiser had the one good year. I don't think he even won 250 games. I think Garvey, even though he was my favorite player is just short. He did though have two MVP's in All-Star games.
Ripken, Gwynn, maybe Gossage and Rice.are in.
I like Mattingly but O'Neil has more rings.
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Post by Mark on Nov 27, 2006 11:56:24 GMT -8
• Mark McGwire • Cal Ripkin Jr. Tony Gwynn my guesses is macgwire might struggle because of the steroid scandle otherwise he is an automatic 1st ballot HOF. the other 2 will get in unanimously on first ballot
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Post by crash23 on Nov 27, 2006 13:13:21 GMT -8
That would be a first. Seaver had the highest % of votes with 98.84 and Ryan was second with 98.79. I think they are the only two that has topped 98%.
A few writers refuse to vote for anyone in their first year. That's just plain stupid. Aaron and others should have been unanimous.
Maybe this year with Ripken it'll happen... but I've heard some writers say if it weren't for The Streak he would not get in the hall of fame. Anyone who says that should get their vote taken away... 400 homers and 3,000 hits - from a shortstop - is not worthy of the Hall of Fame? gimme a break!
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Post by Greenie on Nov 27, 2006 15:56:05 GMT -8
Saberhagen... I had to put 1 long shot in there. You can't always play the chalk. Dawson was the MAN. But so was Dale Murphy(Tony's dad?) How about Dave Parker I haven't looked up his stats But he was damn good for a long time. I talked to McGwire right before the roids blew up and he was leaning towards going in as a Cardinal, so I hope the bas-turd never makes it.
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Post by crash23 on Nov 27, 2006 16:02:25 GMT -8
Murphy, Parker, Oliva, Matingly... there's a lot of players that were excellent and put up pretty good numbers - but is the hall of fame for he pretty good or great? The players mentioned are btter than Cepeda in my book so maybe they deserve to go...
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Post by Chris on Nov 27, 2006 17:00:58 GMT -8
OK take your shots but if Ripken goes so should Garvey. Compare their stats and their isn't much difference.
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Post by trevor9 on Nov 27, 2006 17:11:48 GMT -8
Chris....... compare Ripken to Garvey? My god are you kidding me? Ripken revolutionized the position of shortstop and maybe you have heard about something called "the streak". To my recollection Ripken was never friends of O.J. Simpson either, that counts for a couple of votes there. Besides the obvious he also played his whole career in Baltimore and didn't go to San Diego to screw the Cubs out of a world series like that baffoon Garvey.
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Post by Chris on Nov 27, 2006 17:43:31 GMT -8
Nope not kidding - How many Gold gloves did Ripken have? Garvey had a streak of his own not what Ripken did but doesn't he still own the Nat Iron Man title?
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Post by Chris on Nov 27, 2006 17:45:06 GMT -8
BTW - GG - Ripken 2 life time fielding % .979 - Garvey 4 life time fielding % .996
I'm just saying that by the "numbers" they are about equal. Of course there are the intangibles but too many folks are caught up in the streak hype.
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Post by Greenie on Nov 27, 2006 19:00:56 GMT -8
Nope not kidding - How many Gold gloves did Ripken have? Garvey had a streak of his own not what Ripken did but doesn't he still own the Nat Iron Man title? I wonder if the voters will hold it against him all of his kids he had after his PLAYING days were over? Like Mike said he revolutionized the position. Yes to Ripkin No to Garvey
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Post by crash23 on Nov 27, 2006 19:01:54 GMT -8
Here’s a list* of the career hits leaders, all in the top 85, that are NOT in the Hall. Also listed is average, HRs, RBIs.
Rose - 4256, .303, 160 HRs, 1314 RBIs Palmiero - 3020, .288, 569 HRs, 1835 RBIs Biggio - 2930, .283, 281 HRs, 1125 RBIs, (410 Stolen bases) Harold Baines - 2866, .289 HRs, 384, 1628 RBIs Andre Dawson - 2774, .279, 438 HRs, 1591 RBIs, (314 stolen bases) Vada Pinson - 2757, .286, 256 HRs, 1170 RBIs, (305 stolen bases) Al Oliver - 2743, .303, 219 HRs, 1326 RBIs Alomar - 2743, .300, 210 HRs, 1134 RBIs, (474 stolen bases) Rusty Staub - 2716, .279, 292 HRs, 1466 RBIs Buckner - 2715, .289, 174 HRs, 1208 RBIs Dave Parker - 2712, .290, 339 HRs, 1493 RBIs Tim Raines - 2605, .294, 170 HRs, 980 RBIs (808 stolen bases) Garvey - 2599, 294 HRs, .272, 1308 RBIs Julio Franco - 2566, .299, 172 HRs, 1178 RBIs Willie Davis - 2561, .279, 182 HRs, 1053 RBIs, (398 stolen bases) Steve Finley - 2531, .272, 303 HRs 1165, RBIs (320 stolen bases) Buddy Bell - 2514, .279, 201 HRs, 1106 RBIs Fred McGriff - 2490, .284, 493 HRs, 1550 RBIs
Some of these guys were great all around players, many of whom have been over-looked or totally forgotten. Can you imagine being some of these guys and looking at your career numbers, knowing you did what only a very small percentage ever did in the game – and not get in the Hall? I especially feel for the all around players that closed in on 3,000 hits, 250 + dingers and stole over 300 bases – and played great defense. Some of these guys (not all on the list) would be in the top 50 all around players in the game’s history – yet they are not in the Hall.
McGriff is a no doubter IMO. Take away the Juicers and where would he rank in his era for power hitters (and he also hit for average)?
If Henderson is the greatest lead-off hitter of his era, Raines would have to be second. Does he belong? Take it a step further… Where would he rank as far as the greatest ever? If Henderson is # 1, I’d rank Raines in the top 5. Is that good enough for the Hall? And if it wasn't for Rickey what would we be saying about Raines? Richie Asburn made the Hall with 2574 hits, a .308 average, 29 homers and 586 RBIs. He was elected in part due to his defense but mostly because he was considered his era best lead-off hitter.
* Note – Ripken, Gwynn, Rickey are excluded because they are no doubters. Also excluded is Bonds because he’s an ass.
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Post by Chris on Nov 27, 2006 19:05:33 GMT -8
Ah now Mike has a parrot.
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Post by crash23 on Nov 27, 2006 19:50:00 GMT -8
HUH?
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