Post by crash23 on Dec 31, 2008 12:05:43 GMT -8
So let the debate begin... Who belongs?
Candidates this year are:
1st time on ballot: Ricky Henderson, Jay Bell, David Cone, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Jesse Orosco, Dan Plesac, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, and Matt Williams. For all but Rickey, and perhaps Williams, it will probably be the last time.
Returnees:
Harold Baines – 2866 hits, 289 BA, 384 HR, 1591 RBI, 7 times over 300 avg and 5 times over 290, 22 seasons, 6 AS games
Andre Dawson – 2774 hits, 438 HR, 279 BA, 2 seasons 30/30 club, 8 AS games, ROY, MVP, 5 seasons 300 avg.
Don Mattingly – 2153 hits, 307 BA, 222 HR, 1099 RBI, MVP, 9 Gold Gloves, 6 AS games, 14 seasons. Tied record of HRs in 8 consecutive games .Career cut short due to back problems.
Mark McGwire – 583 HRs, stole Maris’ season HR record in 1998 with 70 HRs. Ironically Barry Bonds later stole it from McGwire.
Dale Murphy – 398 HRs, 265 BA, 2-time MVP, 7-time AS, only other player besides Maris to win Back-to-Back MVPs, 5 times AS, 5 Gold Gloves, 30/30 season, only Mike Scmidt and Eddie Murphy’s power numbers were better than Murphy’s in the 1980s.
Dave Parker – 2712 hits, 290 AVG, 339 HRs, 7-time AS, MVP, AS MVP, 3 gold gloves, 19 seasons
Tim Raines – 2605 hits, 294 avg, 808 SB, 6 consecutive seasons 70+SB (high = 90), 23 seasons, 7 AS games, AS MVP, 8 seasons over 300avg
Jim Rice – 382 HRs, 298 AVG, 2452 hits, 16 seasons, 502 SLG, 8 seasons 100 RBI, 7 AS Games, MVP. Finished 2nd to teammate Fred Lynn for ROY
Alan Trammell – 2365 hits, 285 BA, 20 seasons, with Lou Whittaker combined for longest SS/2B tandem. Stats surpass Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, and several other HOF shortstops.
Bert Blyleven - 287 – 250, 3701 Ks (5th all-time), 3.31 ERA, 534 win %, one 20 win season. Comparable to Don Sutton’s stats (except Sutton passed 300 wins).
Tommy John – 288 – 231, 2245 Ks, 3.34 era, 3 20 win seasons. Last 9 seasons added to win total, going 74 – 80 with a bloated ERA. pitcher at best. Had he been a RH he’d been bounced from the league. Without the 74 wins he’s at 214 with less than Vida Blue like numbers.
Jack Morris – 254 – 186, 2478 Ks, 3.90 era, 3 20 win seasons, Cy Young Award. How many pitchers were better in the 90s?
Lee Smith – 478 saves, .436 winning %, 1251 Ks in 1289 innings. Retired as all-time saves leader... So what? Doesn’t belong, neither did Sutter. Only other relievers that are deserving besides those already in are Rivera, Hoffman.
I'll also toss out these names that have been on the "old timers" committee but have not yet made it:
Rocky Colavito – 374 HRs, 266 BA, 6 seasons 100 RBI, 14 seasons, 9 AS games, avg 33 HR and 102 RBI for career
Steve Garvey – 2599 hits, 272 HRs, 294 BA, 1308 RBI, MVP, 1978 NCCS MVP, 4 Gold Gloves, 10 AS games, 2 AS MVP, 19 Seasons, 1207 consecutive games plyed (NL record), 6 seasons 200 hits,
Gil Hodges – 370 HRs, 273 BA, 18 seasons, 7 consecutive seasons 100 RBI, 8 AS games
Roger Maris – Back-to-Back MVPs, 275 HRs, 3 times over 100 RBI, 7 WS, 7 AS games, Gold Glove, 12 seasons,
Thurman Munson – 292 avg, 113 HRs, 7 AS games, MVP, ROY, 3 Gold Gloves, 5 times 300 Avg, great leader
Tony Oliva – 1917 hits, 304 BA, 220 HRs, 8 AS Games, 1964 ROY, 1966 Gold Glove, 7 seasons 300 BA
Al Oliver – 2743 hits, 303 BA, 210 HRs, 11 seasons 300 AVG, 7 AS Games,
Vada Pinson – 2757 hits, 286 avg, 18 seasons, 4 seasons over 300 and 200 hits, 4 time AS, 1 Gold Glove, 343 BA in 1961 (2nd in league)
Jim Kaat – 283 – 237, 2461 Ks, 3.45 era, 25 seasons, 3-time 20 game winner. Went 48 - 50 last 7 seasons.
Mickey Lolich – 217 – 191, 2832 Ks, 3.44 era, 2-times 20 game winner, 16 seasons
Luis Tiant – 229 – 172, 2416 Ks, 3.30 era, 4-time 20 game winner, 19 seasons
NOTE: The only players to surpass 2,700 hits (in the modern era) that are not in the HOF are Baines, Oliver, Pinson, Dawson, Buckner, Staub, Alomar... And Bonds.
Lastly is Ron Santo. He’s always compared to Brooks Robinson so I’ve listed both their stats:
Ron Santo - 342 HR, 1331 RBI, 277 BA, 362 OBP, 954 FP, 5 Gold Glove, 9 AS Games, 365 DBL, 464 SLG %, 2254 Hits, 15 Seasons
Brooks Robinson – 268 HR, 1357 RBI, 267 BA, 322 OBP, 971 FP, 16 Gold Gloves, 23 AS Games, 482 2B, 401 SLG %, 2848 Hits, 23 Seasons
Two guys not on the list:
Joe Jackson – 356 life-time BA, second only to Ty Cobb. Landis screwed him over, Jackson should not have been lumped in with the others...
Pete Rose – career hits leader. Committed the crime as a manager, belongs as a player.
So... Who among these belongs??? My choices are in bold (though MO sometimes changes by the day!) When deciding, I think you have to judge a player based on his era. If he was one of the top 1 or 2 players at his position he probably belongs. Several players over the last 30 years amassed big numbers through longevity, so don't belong. Both quality and quantity have to be evaluated. Kaat, John, Buckner, Baines, are a few examples. Mediocrity over the last 5 - 7 years of a players career don't = HOF, even if the career numbers seem to the contrary. A lot of players were really good for a long time, but that doesn't earn them entry into the Hall...
Candidates this year are:
1st time on ballot: Ricky Henderson, Jay Bell, David Cone, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Jesse Orosco, Dan Plesac, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, and Matt Williams. For all but Rickey, and perhaps Williams, it will probably be the last time.
Returnees:
Harold Baines – 2866 hits, 289 BA, 384 HR, 1591 RBI, 7 times over 300 avg and 5 times over 290, 22 seasons, 6 AS games
Andre Dawson – 2774 hits, 438 HR, 279 BA, 2 seasons 30/30 club, 8 AS games, ROY, MVP, 5 seasons 300 avg.
Don Mattingly – 2153 hits, 307 BA, 222 HR, 1099 RBI, MVP, 9 Gold Gloves, 6 AS games, 14 seasons. Tied record of HRs in 8 consecutive games .Career cut short due to back problems.
Mark McGwire – 583 HRs, stole Maris’ season HR record in 1998 with 70 HRs. Ironically Barry Bonds later stole it from McGwire.
Dale Murphy – 398 HRs, 265 BA, 2-time MVP, 7-time AS, only other player besides Maris to win Back-to-Back MVPs, 5 times AS, 5 Gold Gloves, 30/30 season, only Mike Scmidt and Eddie Murphy’s power numbers were better than Murphy’s in the 1980s.
Dave Parker – 2712 hits, 290 AVG, 339 HRs, 7-time AS, MVP, AS MVP, 3 gold gloves, 19 seasons
Tim Raines – 2605 hits, 294 avg, 808 SB, 6 consecutive seasons 70+SB (high = 90), 23 seasons, 7 AS games, AS MVP, 8 seasons over 300avg
Jim Rice – 382 HRs, 298 AVG, 2452 hits, 16 seasons, 502 SLG, 8 seasons 100 RBI, 7 AS Games, MVP. Finished 2nd to teammate Fred Lynn for ROY
Alan Trammell – 2365 hits, 285 BA, 20 seasons, with Lou Whittaker combined for longest SS/2B tandem. Stats surpass Pee Wee Reese, Phil Rizzuto, and several other HOF shortstops.
Bert Blyleven - 287 – 250, 3701 Ks (5th all-time), 3.31 ERA, 534 win %, one 20 win season. Comparable to Don Sutton’s stats (except Sutton passed 300 wins).
Tommy John – 288 – 231, 2245 Ks, 3.34 era, 3 20 win seasons. Last 9 seasons added to win total, going 74 – 80 with a bloated ERA. pitcher at best. Had he been a RH he’d been bounced from the league. Without the 74 wins he’s at 214 with less than Vida Blue like numbers.
Jack Morris – 254 – 186, 2478 Ks, 3.90 era, 3 20 win seasons, Cy Young Award. How many pitchers were better in the 90s?
Lee Smith – 478 saves, .436 winning %, 1251 Ks in 1289 innings. Retired as all-time saves leader... So what? Doesn’t belong, neither did Sutter. Only other relievers that are deserving besides those already in are Rivera, Hoffman.
I'll also toss out these names that have been on the "old timers" committee but have not yet made it:
Rocky Colavito – 374 HRs, 266 BA, 6 seasons 100 RBI, 14 seasons, 9 AS games, avg 33 HR and 102 RBI for career
Steve Garvey – 2599 hits, 272 HRs, 294 BA, 1308 RBI, MVP, 1978 NCCS MVP, 4 Gold Gloves, 10 AS games, 2 AS MVP, 19 Seasons, 1207 consecutive games plyed (NL record), 6 seasons 200 hits,
Gil Hodges – 370 HRs, 273 BA, 18 seasons, 7 consecutive seasons 100 RBI, 8 AS games
Roger Maris – Back-to-Back MVPs, 275 HRs, 3 times over 100 RBI, 7 WS, 7 AS games, Gold Glove, 12 seasons,
Thurman Munson – 292 avg, 113 HRs, 7 AS games, MVP, ROY, 3 Gold Gloves, 5 times 300 Avg, great leader
Tony Oliva – 1917 hits, 304 BA, 220 HRs, 8 AS Games, 1964 ROY, 1966 Gold Glove, 7 seasons 300 BA
Al Oliver – 2743 hits, 303 BA, 210 HRs, 11 seasons 300 AVG, 7 AS Games,
Vada Pinson – 2757 hits, 286 avg, 18 seasons, 4 seasons over 300 and 200 hits, 4 time AS, 1 Gold Glove, 343 BA in 1961 (2nd in league)
Jim Kaat – 283 – 237, 2461 Ks, 3.45 era, 25 seasons, 3-time 20 game winner. Went 48 - 50 last 7 seasons.
Mickey Lolich – 217 – 191, 2832 Ks, 3.44 era, 2-times 20 game winner, 16 seasons
Luis Tiant – 229 – 172, 2416 Ks, 3.30 era, 4-time 20 game winner, 19 seasons
NOTE: The only players to surpass 2,700 hits (in the modern era) that are not in the HOF are Baines, Oliver, Pinson, Dawson, Buckner, Staub, Alomar... And Bonds.
Lastly is Ron Santo. He’s always compared to Brooks Robinson so I’ve listed both their stats:
Ron Santo - 342 HR, 1331 RBI, 277 BA, 362 OBP, 954 FP, 5 Gold Glove, 9 AS Games, 365 DBL, 464 SLG %, 2254 Hits, 15 Seasons
Brooks Robinson – 268 HR, 1357 RBI, 267 BA, 322 OBP, 971 FP, 16 Gold Gloves, 23 AS Games, 482 2B, 401 SLG %, 2848 Hits, 23 Seasons
Two guys not on the list:
Joe Jackson – 356 life-time BA, second only to Ty Cobb. Landis screwed him over, Jackson should not have been lumped in with the others...
Pete Rose – career hits leader. Committed the crime as a manager, belongs as a player.
So... Who among these belongs??? My choices are in bold (though MO sometimes changes by the day!) When deciding, I think you have to judge a player based on his era. If he was one of the top 1 or 2 players at his position he probably belongs. Several players over the last 30 years amassed big numbers through longevity, so don't belong. Both quality and quantity have to be evaluated. Kaat, John, Buckner, Baines, are a few examples. Mediocrity over the last 5 - 7 years of a players career don't = HOF, even if the career numbers seem to the contrary. A lot of players were really good for a long time, but that doesn't earn them entry into the Hall...