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Post by Wilbur on May 15, 2006 14:52:09 GMT -8
It is understood that nothing the coaches of the AA Storm are doing this season is violating any rules. What I can't understand is when all of the other coaches are in agreement that stealing bases on every opportunity (not just passed balls) and even stealing home is not what this level of baseball is all about, the Storm coaches feel justified that they are preparing their players for the next level by teaching them to win at all costs. Whatever happened to teaching kids the value of sportsmanship and acting in a respectable manner towards other coaches, teams, and players? Regarding the bad blood this situation is causing around the AA league, and based on what I have been hearing from many different people from many different teams, here are some of my thoughts:
Why taking advantage of every opportunity to steal bases at this level is a bad idea:
1) It is enough to get our pitchers to get the ball into the strike zone and our catchers to hang on to it without having to worry about trying to throw a runner out at second or third, a virtual impossibility at this level. It shows bad faith to send runners down to second when the possibility of them being put out does not really exist. It is this idea of taking advantage of the situation, not just taking another base, that is rubbing so many of the managers, coaches, and parents I have talked to wrong. Now most managers will agree that a passed ball that rolls to the backstop is a fair reason to advance, or a reaction to an attempted putout gone awry (overthrow) is a fair reason to advance, but apparently, any reason is a good reason for the Storm to advance.
2) Stealing home is never a good idea at this level because many kids do not know how to slide properly, batters are often in the way, pitchers and catchers are not as coordinated to assist each other and stay safe, and someone is bound to get injured.
Regarding the Storm coaches' apparent justification for doing what they do:
3) It just plain doesn't make sense at this level that stealing home is somehow "preparing" kids for the next level. Teaching kids to hit the ball, have confidence and not be afraid, field, keep their little heads in the game, BE GOOD SPORTS, and have FUN are our priorities at this level. Winning is nice, but...
4) When the score gets to be 7-1, or 13-3, or some other runaway difference, what could be the rationale for continuing to steal, even steal home, as the Storm are doing???
My last point is, everybody believes that what they are doing for their team is the right thing to do. What is the standard against which one's personal coaching philosophy can be gauged, validated, and/or adjusted? How about the Turlock Little League Code of Conduct? How about the collective wisdom and understanding of the managers as a whole, and what 99% of them are in agreement with? Going against the grain, which the Storm coaches are doing--I cannot fathom them not being aware of this--only causes animosity and contempt, which is not good for the league, especially when outbursts occur, as happened between the Storm and the Greenjackets Saturday. The kids suffer most when this happens.
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Post by Mark on May 15, 2006 15:19:45 GMT -8
i will keep it short because i dont really know the EXACT situation here. but i will say that kids must be taught how to play the game the right way and to play at 100%.
i do not believe in stealing bases with big leads (15+ Minors/Majors, 10+ runs Juniors of Higher competition like travel or HS)
but stealing is part of the game and you are doing a disservice to YOUR kids by not teaching them how to do so.
these games (AA) SHOULD pretty much be meaningless and the more stealing that occurs means more practice for the runners and more practice for the Defense which will better prepare them for getting drafted to a Majors team in the future.
7-1 or 13-3 isnt a lot for a AA LL teamas i have seen 10-0 leads be ereased quite easily back when i was down at Soderquist or some travel tournament for ages 10U.
maybe coaches should work more with their catchers and on their defense more to get these runners out. that in the long run will make THOSE kids alote better
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Post by Wilbur on May 15, 2006 16:49:33 GMT -8
i will keep it short because i dont really know the EXACT situation here. but i will say that kids must be taught how to play the game the right way and to play at 100%. Believe me, there is not a coach out here that does not believe he is teaching his players to play the right way. The point is that most can understand that stealing does NOT need to be emphasized at this level, regardless of its usefullness. Gung ho coaches, not satisfied with the plentiful walks apparently, choose instead to turn each walk into a double on the very next pitch, and even a triple on the next. Since most catchers cannot throw down quickly and accurately enough to get the runner, most coaches do not feel it is a legitimate way to advance their runners at this level, even though it is legal. I respect that your opinion differs, but it differs from MANY more AA managers, coaches, and parents than just my own. i do not believe in stealing bases with big leads (15+ Minors/Majors, 10+ runs Juniors of Higher competition like travel or HS) but stealing is part of the game and you are doing a disservice to YOUR kids by not teaching them how to do so. Again, we disagree on this point. We teach our kids to be ready for the passed ball or overthrow, not on running when the ball hits the catcher's glove. That can be taught at the next level, when most catchers can reach second. This is agreed to by the vast majority of the AA managers. I guess we are all doing them a disservice, except the Storm. these games (AA) SHOULD pretty much be meaningless and the more stealing that occurs means more practice for the runners They get plenty of practice, believe me, as many passed balls occur at this level. and more practice for the Defense which will better prepare them for getting drafted to a Majors team in the future. 7-1 or 13-3 isnt a lot for a AA LL teamas i have seen 10-0 leads be ereased quite easily back when i was down at Soderquist or some travel tournament for ages 10U. Have you forgotten the 4-run rule and the time limit at this level? There are games in which the outcome is sealed by the third inning. At this point, stealing home is in your face. maybe coaches should work more with their catchers and on their defense more to get these runners out. that in the long run will make THOSE kids a lot better We work with our catchers and third basemen on the throw to third, but we do not work on throwing kids out at second. I guess if your 7-9 year old catcher can gun 'em down at second, more power to 'em.
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Post by Mark on May 15, 2006 17:32:41 GMT -8
do you guys have hitting practice? if so for how long to you guys do hitting practice?? percentage wise of your entire practice
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Post by Wilbur on May 15, 2006 18:07:54 GMT -8
Well yes, as a matter of fact we actually practice our hitting. Imagine that. That's kind of a silly question, isn't it? Percentage-wise, and this is purely an estimate because there are three different hitting stations set up, it is maybe 63.234% of our team's total practice.
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Post by Byrd on May 15, 2006 19:40:25 GMT -8
Okay here is my take on stealing bases in the AA level.....I have played at the college level and coached at many levels of baseball. I myself think stealing bases is fine at any level. Now what I cannot stand in the AA level is stealing home when the catcher is throwing the ball back to the pitcher. I am not a huge fan of this because Little League is the only level you will see this at. I as a coach in the AA level would only have my kids steal if it were a passed ball. I agree with Wilbur that the games are hard enough to finish past 4 innings and when you run run run the whole game it does not look pretty. Mark as far as stealing in travel ball in the 10U division you are talking about the higher level of athletes in that age group. Travel ball is a whole different game and has different rules all the way around then Little League which I know you are very aware of. Not many around that have coached as well as you do bro.
Now in regards to most kids in the AA level do not know how to slide then coaches need to focus on teaching the proper technique of sliding. One thing I found that works really well is have them wear tennis shoes and bring a very large piece of cardboard and have them slide on it rather then in the dirt or the grass. They will not hang their cleats up in the dirt or the grass and they will slide like they are on a slip and slide. It is all about teaching and sliding is a huge part of the game. Little league requires all base runners to slide if there is a play so if they are not taught properly someone is seriously going to get hurt. I have to agree that it is not about winning but about teaching but stealing is indeed part of the game. This does not justify a team stealing on every pitch tho. I feel they can pick and choose the times to steal. Catchers need to work on their throws to all bases and players need to learn how to cover a bag. Yes they do need to be coached and prepared to play at the next level. If the game is a blowout then running at any level is not a good thing. Good luck and have FUN!!!!
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Post by crash23 on May 15, 2006 20:49:00 GMT -8
I don't believe there's a ever a scenario where sportsmanship shouldn't be taught. You get up by 10, you stop stealing, taking the extra base, scoring on a passed ball. Your opponent scores a few runs and gets within shouting distance, you go back to full on baseball, stealing and all. It can be tough in AA, but I think teaching sportsmanship, even if it ends up costing you, does the greater good. I have seen coaches that teach things that work at the minor level but engrains bad habits that players will look foolish trying to pull off in the majors. Some of these players have got thrown out at the next level and looked baffled, like "coach didn't tell me about that!"
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Post by scrapper on May 16, 2006 15:45:23 GMT -8
As a coach on the AA level, I think kids should steal second and third on past balls. Due to the fact that the catcher has to learn how to block the plate. I also agree that if a kid overthrows the base the runner is headed to (i.e. runners on first and second, grounder hit to second baseman, gets runner at first and then first baseman overthrows third, the runner should be allowed to score. In the AA level, we have to teach the kids to run the ball in so that we get to the pitcher. Even the major kids get the throws, where the ball is flown around the field. We need to teach kids situations. As for the Storm, I may not agree with what they are doing, but they are playing ball. The other double AA teams are going to have to deal with it. The trick to beating them is to make sure you get out in front, and hold them for an inning. Because of the 4 run rule, you can hopefully can get up by 5 runs.
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Post by Mark on May 16, 2006 19:57:54 GMT -8
Well yes, as a matter of fact we actually practice our hitting. Imagine that. That's kind of a silly question, isn't it? Percentage-wise, and this is purely an estimate because there are three different hitting stations set up, it is maybe 63.234% of our team's total practice. it isnt that silly of a question because when i coached 8U and 10U out in county league hitting was about 10% of our practices. my first year with TNLL was 2001, my last was 2004. i coached there for 4 years (2 in Majors and 2 in Juniors) and was on the board for 1 (2003). over those 4 years i would say we dedicated i little under 20% to hitting. the majority of our practice was DEFENSE and PITCHING. and i would say we did pretty good for ourselves. In 4 years we played in 4 City Championships we had the best defense in the league, we had the best pitching in the league, people DIDNT run on us unless it was a passed ball, and still at times got thrown out by our 10 Year old catcher. all i am saying is that kids must be taught the fundamentals, and that is pitching and defense. hitting will come later as they get older more and more emphasis can and should be put on hitting. right now i coach 18U and since i know the kids a fundementally sound hitting is now 60% of our practices while Pens are 20% and defense is 20%
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Post by Mark on May 16, 2006 20:18:31 GMT -8
Okay here is my take on stealing bases in the AA level.....I have played at the college level and coached at many levels of baseball. and i have heard from people, including teamates of yours that you were a good ball player. agreed. only league it will ever happen in. teaching kids to do so is and will always be useless later in life yup i used to teach the kids to slide by taking their cleats off and going to the Outfield and practice sliding in the grass with ONLY their socks on (sorry to all MOMS of kids that have played for me in the past) but it seemed to work fine. agreed!!!!!!!!!!!! yup, if catchers can learn do that they WILL be on a Majors team the following year, and thats what it is all about moving them UP through the system by improving THEIR KNOWLEDGE of the game. sure aint. and at the level we currently play at it isnt tolerated. and that is made very clear after 1 occurance
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Post by Chris on May 16, 2006 21:09:52 GMT -8
Mark,
I think the year when you were VP we outlawed stealing home on passed balls. In AA we wanted to see the kids hit the ball and make the plays. Too often in AA a kid walks then goes from first to second to third to home all on passed balls. So with the 4 run rule you essentially get only 4 or 5 batter to the plate per inning. That can be tough when only playing 3-4 innings. Yawn! I don't know - I think if all the managers agreed to run station-to-station then the Storm should honor the agreement.
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Post by Mark on May 16, 2006 21:51:47 GMT -8
Mark, I think the year when you were VP we outlawed stealing home on passed balls. i believe we did. is that still in effect? ?
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Post by Chris on May 16, 2006 22:12:04 GMT -8
Nope they dumped it.
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Post by Wilbur on May 16, 2006 22:45:33 GMT -8
I know you are an accomplished coach, far more so than I will ever be. I get a little concerned when someone suggests that we are doing a disservice to our players and not asking them to give 100% by not having them steal off a little catcher who has all he can handle just to catch the ball and get it back to the pitcher on the fly. We do run on passed balls and overthrows, but not when we are already assured a victory. The Storm coaches are running up the score, and they are stealing on throws back to the pitcher, and on pretty much every pitch possible. Yes, it is legal, and yes it is baseball, but it is not what most managers do because they know it does not serve the game at this level. This is a place to rant, and this is my rant. I thank you for and respect your opinion. all i am saying is that kids must be taught the fundamentals, and that is pitching and defense. hitting will come later as they get older more and more emphasis can and should be put on hitting. I agree with you for the most part here, but in my opinion, kids who show trepidation at the plate would not get much attention from Majors coaches at tryouts, if they even tryout at all. Some of the reasons kids give up on baseball is fear of getting hit by the pitch and lack of confidence at the plate, not fear of fielding or stealing. Please help me understand how spending only 10% of practice time hitting gives these little kids enough experience to be confident at the plate and not back out on every pitch. Coach pitch was developed to alleviate some of this fear and get kids to swing the bat. Swinging the bat helps develop defensive skills because the ball gets put in play more often than walking. Our players are not expected to swing like Barry Bonds, but hand/eye coodination can only be developed by much repitition. Catching, throwing, and fielding can also only be developed by much repitition. Pitching can only be developed by much repitition. A strong catcher (the hardest position by far) is a luxury most teams do not have, and although our catchers always make growth, that does not mean they can throw runners out at second by the end of the season, no matter how good their coaches are. Therefore most AA managers make a mutual agreement to take it easy on the stealing. Is that wrong? I ask these things because I really want to improve as a coach for the benefit of my players, and I value the opinions of all of you who are more accomplished than I.
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Post by Chris on May 16, 2006 23:08:25 GMT -8
I think you got it right Bill.
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